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Post by blop on Mar 23, 2010 19:25:34 GMT -5
Don't worry, I'm not going to spoil anything, but I just came back from watching it (Canadian channel ftw!!  ). I'll just say - hold on to your heads guys, cause this was one heck of an episode. Sit back, relax, and enjoy storytelling at its best. |
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Post by spinaltumor on Mar 23, 2010 21:50:42 GMT -5
Go Team Jacob...  |
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Post by wizardmom on Mar 23, 2010 22:05:05 GMT -5
Good Lord!!! I was waiting for Jacob to say his name...
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Post by warrick123 on Mar 23, 2010 22:08:36 GMT -5
Go team MIL!!!!!! You see that force Jacob used on Ricardo, unnecessary. MIL was quite nice to him i thought... LOL |
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Post by spinaltumor on Mar 23, 2010 22:23:17 GMT -5
MIB continues to be simply called "the man in black."
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Post by evilgus on Mar 23, 2010 23:21:12 GMT -5
Randall Flagg and Jacob must have travelled back in time because I don't think you got accents like that in 1867.
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Post by LockeRulez on Mar 23, 2010 23:34:49 GMT -5
great episode, another excellent backstory, and lots of answers, although i don't think we got any really crazy mythology answers. just good "down to earth" sort of things, but nothing that blew me away (like the Lighthouse).
I'd say the biggest mythology answer we started to get was more on the story about Jacob/MIB and the island being the "cork in the bottle" keeping evil in. great start, but they are obviously drawing out what the island/jacob/MIB is.
I'm guessing this is (unfortunately) all we will see of Richard's back story, so this was great to see the reason behind his slavery and resolution of his backstory via conversation with his dead wife, thanks to hurley... and then watching him pass from doubt and back on the side of the "good guys" to stop MIB. this does pretty much close up what Richard's background and role is, so I guess we will have to be content with this much about Richard, even though I wish we saw more. I don't feel like there was anything crazy revealed about richard's role which should have been held back this long. I can understand holding back through the introduction of Jacob/MIB, but we always thought there was more to this than just he's an immortal advisor because Jacob made him an immortal advisor (which we mostly knew). Again, great story showing it happen, but nothing crazy here. I'm not sure what else I expected though. I guess i'm used to having people get healed in magical pools and turning magical donkey wheels or an electromagnetic pocket caused it.
I was also sensing there would be a big twist here, such as MIB was the one who saved him from the Black Rock and made him immortal and who he was working for the whole time, pretending to be Jacob. Further confusing (or possibly clarifying) our argument over who was really in the cabin and whether they really are the same person... I think if he said he was Jacob, we would still doubt if they were really the same person, or if he was just trying to trick Richard.
things resolved:
- how richard ended up as slave, and on the black rock in chains (1867)
- how the statue was destroyed and how the Black Rock ended up in the middle of the island.... good to see the answers, but nothing really crazy here. I guess when you're dealing with an island that has ghosts, smoke monsters, time travel, etc, than a big storm at sea just seems a bit "normal".. oh well, i guess they can't be all crazy answers, so this was good enough.. side note: this was obviously not the ship seen in "The Incident", as that ship was during the day on calm waters.
- saw inside joke about black/white rocks.. (will we see the black one given in return?),.. I was very surprised there wasn't a connection to the Black Rock (ship) as part of this inside joke. like maybe MIB finally brought a ship to the island.
- again confirmed that jacob gave Richard immortally in return for his service. it was good to see the story of how they bargained for this, however, we already knew Jacob gave him that power, and still didn't get really explained how it works. i doubt we will ever be given that answer (or other things like how ghosts are real, how Smokey really works, etc). The story is probably our only answer here. Obviously I'm a Man Of Science, but i will have to concede to just the story as the explanation here.
And we learned more About Jacob/MIB/Island:
- jacob says the island isn't hell, but cork keeping evil in bottle. If MIB leaves the island, the world will all go evil and "go to hell". MIB says it is hell, with Jacob as devil... who do we believe? Or are they both lying to manipulate Richard?
- MIB believes everyone is corruptible (as we've seen with his offers), Jacob wants to prove that wrong but let people make their own choices of right vs. wrong. he can't step in.. no one has passed this test yet. everyone how has been on the island before has died (in the end its always the same).
Open items:
assuming the slave ship was traveling from the Canary Island to either Spain or The New World, is this the first time we've heard of The Island appearing in The Atlantic?
Richard is offered job as "intermediary" who can "step in" to help people make choices because Jacob can't. however, how is this not Jacob's influence then if he just has someone else doing the work of influencing? Maybe this is another loophole. i guess Richard is the "advisor" because he advises of path to take, but doesn't make actual decisions. still lets them decide. still sounds like Jacob ends up influencing (via his stand-in) more than he should. I guess this seems to be his motif though: "You know ben, you shouldn't stab me.. but its your choice".. again.. does not fully seem like unbiased Free Will to me.
MIB says Jacob took his body and his humanity.. Do we take that literally? Did Jacob take on the original "form" of MIB, or just made it so MIB no longer has a body, and is just smoke? Probably just referring too his "conversion" into a smoke monster.
Ricardo versus Ricardus? Assuming this is the influence of The Others, How did Latin become the enlightened language of The Others? What kind of last name is Alpert? Is it really Spanish?
Is this story what we're supposed to believe as the explanation of how Richard thought Jacob told him he was part of a plan? Is the plan to see if people will choose right vs wrong? Richard's previous explanation implied there was some "end-game" to the plan that Jacob said he would tell him later. Obviously we did not hear that tonight. So was there other discussion about "the plan"?
Based on the cork/wine bottle analogy, there is no killing MIB, only containing him. So again, if MIB was once a man, how did he become "evil incarnate"? You have to believe good and evil existed long before MIB was changed from a Man into Smokey.
Why did Richard appear as a jungle hobo to YB? - if we didn't get this tonight, i think we won't get this one.
jacob told illana the 6 candidates names. so why would she think Lapidus was possibly a candidate?
is the knife the same as Dogen had?
others that came before all end up dead.. corrupted? how does this align with people who died after being redeemed? what determines when MIB is "allowed" (or chooses) to kill someone?
how would Ghost Isabella know Richard has to stop MIB from leaving? Was this really Hurley tacking on a Jacob order?
How do dead people know anything about what's going on? Obviously "ghosts" can observe at least The Island.. I don't think we'll ever get details about how ghosts work.
how did Richard recognize MIB in unLocke's form (before his comment about Richard's chains)?
Another extension of the Jacob/MIB explanations, is how is there evil off island, if it is bottled up on-island? Did some escape? or did people that were influenced by MIB escape? or is MIB correct that everyone has good/evil in them? In this case, why bother keeping evil bottled up if its out anyway? i guess we're supposed to believe you don't want evil itself rampaging around influencing choices on its own, but if people choose evil its ok. hmm.. this just doesn't lead to me to really believe that the island is generally stopping evil, because this isn't really stopping evil acts. its just containing one part of evil. and if its a container for evil, why do you bring all those (relatively) good people there? that sounds like torture to me.
So is Jacob just another type of evil?
GO TEAM MIL!
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Post by derrick2020 on Mar 24, 2010 8:17:05 GMT -5
others that came before all end up dead.. corrupted? how does this align with people who died after being redeemed? what determines when MIB is "allowed" (or chooses) to kill someone? My guess is that with every ship/plain/sub/etc. Jacob brings to the island there is at least 1 candidate (if there isn't why bring them to the island) MIB can not directly kill a candidate, but anyone else is fair game. MIB will just not immediately kill all non-candidates though as they can serve a purpose of helping his master plan. In the temple MIB gave the people an ultimatum. Follow him or die. He needs an army (probably just for cannon fodder but he still needs him for his purpose) So he lets the people that will follow him live for the time being and the people (non-candidates) that stay at the temple he kills since they no longer serve a purpose to him. This also would explain why the others would take the children. They knew that children weren’t candidates but they wanted to protect them from MIB. If I knew that MIB could kill people as easily as he does and that it is impossible (probably) to kill him I would want to protect the innocent. |
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Post by spinaltumor on Mar 24, 2010 9:21:09 GMT -5
assuming the slave ship was traveling from the Canary Island to either Spain or The New World, is this the first time we've heard of The Island appearing in The Atlantic? Seems so. Which means Richard's witnessed the Island moving via donkey wheel, doesn't it? Richard is offered job as "intermediary" who can "step in" to help people make choices because Jacob can't. however, how is this not Jacob's influence then if he just has someone else doing the work of influencing? Maybe this is another loophole. i guess Richard is the "advisor" because he advises of path to take, but doesn't make actual decisions. still lets them decide. still sounds like Jacob ends up influencing (via his stand-in) more than he should. I guess this seems to be his motif though: "You know ben, you shouldn't stab me.. but its your choice".. again.. does not fully seem like unbiased Free Will to me. It's like when Richard gives Locke Sawyer's file, but doesn't tell him what to do with it. It can be seen as "manipulating." But Richard was the one who came up with the job in the first place, really. He felt Jacob needed some amount of representation. Ricardo versus Ricardus? Assuming this is the influence of The Others, How did Latin become the enlightened language of The Others? What kind of last name is Alpert? Is it really Spanish? I think 'Alpert' is just to make his name a reference to Ram Dass. Why did Richard appear as a jungle hobo to YB? - if we didn't get this tonight, i think we won't get this one. We may just have to assume Richard was donning Others garb for once. jacob told illana the 6 candidates names. so why would she think Lapidus was possibly a candidate? Thinking back, and I could be wrong...but I think only Bram suggested Lapidus could be a candidate. Ilana simply said they should take him with them. is the knife the same as Dogen had? According to Lostpedia, yes. how would Ghost Isabella know Richard has to stop MIB from leaving? Was this really Hurley tacking on a Jacob order? How do dead people know anything about what's going on? Obviously "ghosts" can observe at least The Island.. I don't think we'll ever get details about how ghosts work.- The only other real ghost I think we may have seen on the show is Ben's mother. Both her and Isabella died off -Island yet appeared on-Island. They also seemed very knowledgeable. I think they act to their own thinking, and aren't influenced by either Jacob or MIB. how did Richard recognize MIB in unLocke's form (before his comment about Richard's chains)? But he didn't? He only said "You?!" after the chains comment. Another extension of the Jacob/MIB explanations, is how is there evil off island, if it is bottled up on-island? Did some escape? or did people that were influenced by MIB escape? or is MIB correct that everyone has good/evil in them? In this case, why bother keeping evil bottled up if its out anyway? i guess we're supposed to believe you don't want evil itself rampaging around influencing choices on its own, but if people choose evil its ok. hmm.. this just doesn't lead to me to really believe that the island is generally stopping evil, because this isn't really stopping evil acts. its just containing one part of evil. and if its a container for evil, why do you bring all those (relatively) good people there? that sounds like torture to me. I think the point is that MIB believes there is no good in people at all. That in the end, they only do bad. Jacob sees there is a "scale" in people, and that they can choose to do good over evil. If MIB getting out means everyone in the world becomes infected, then they'll all turn into feral Claire's and Sayid's. Cold and savage. |
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Post by LockeRulez on Mar 24, 2010 9:56:57 GMT -5
Ricardo versus Ricardus? Assuming this is the influence of The Others, How did Latin become the enlightened language of The Others? What kind of last name is Alpert? Is it really Spanish? After thinking about this, I think that the Latin will come from the same reason Richard learned English.. to pass time. And then he will instill this as one of the values of The Others. Why he changed his name to Ricardus, versus Ricardo, versus Richard, I still don't 100% understand, other than to possibly immerse himself in that language. Yes, people change their names when entering a new culture, but often this is for pronunciation (or integration) reasons. I don't see that being the case here. Along similar lines, why was the episode title in Latin, when we only saw Spanish influences in the episode? www.websters-online-dictionary.org/translation/Latin/ab+aeterno"From The Beginning Of Time".. I guess this is in regards to Richards beginnings, but certainly both The Island and Richard existed before these specific events. And maybe its a reference to the wine bottle analogy, possibly inferring the evil has been bottled since the beginning of time on The Island. |
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Post by ccsgo on Mar 24, 2010 11:59:48 GMT -5
Is it just me or did they take a horrendous amount of time to tell us that Richard was from Tenerife, was sold into slavery after killing a doctor, and ended up on a ship that was pulled into the island by Jacob to test his morals? All I wanted to learn was the MIB's darn name! And he still does not seem to have one.
Left to be determined: How does MIB happen to have the smoke personality?
Finally resolved: Why Jacob wants people to come to the island and how he gets them there - he has supernatural powers! He caused the tidal wave, and maybe he caused the plane crash as well.
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Post by ROCK & ROYALTY™ on Mar 24, 2010 12:04:37 GMT -5
I don't feel like there was anything crazy revealed about richard's role which should have been held back this long. I can understand holding back through the introduction of Jacob/MIB, but we always thought there was more to this than just he's an immortal advisor because Jacob made him an immortal advisor (which we mostly knew). 2 years ago (April 08) my husband and I took a LOST tour on Oahu. We were up in the mountains at Kuloa Ranch where they film a lot of scenes. Our tour guide stopped at some small straw huts that are used by various TV/Film crews. He said LOST had just shot a scene there the day before and mentioned a theory that it could be a flashback for the Black Rock. He didn't see or mention actors though. We waited patiently through season 4 for those scenes and never saw it, so we assumed it was cut. I'm wondering if they were going to tell a Richard story, then decided not to. Richard's house in last night's ep looked like the same location, only there were more stones in the building than there was 2 years ago. I thought that this was an awesome episode giving some pretty big answers. Maybe they had to wait longer to share richard's story until there was more build up for Jacob / MIB. I thought things pieced together very nicely so it was worth the wait. I also started remembering all of the theories brought up after episodes like The Man From Tallahasse where Cooper says they were in Hell because he thought he and Locke were dead, and the one where Naomi lands on the island claiming the world thought they were all dead so they might be in purgatory. D&C denied this and it did seem way too early to be throwing out ideas like this. Eventually it lead away from those thoughts, but now it seems to be back in some manner. The wine/cork analogy was very helpful and guides you away from everyone actually being dead and in hell. I think MIB was trying to convince Richard that Jacob was the Devil just to trick him into trying to kill Jacob, the same way he orchestrated the move to take over Locke's body and convince Ben to kill him. MIB has obviously been trying to get through that loophole for a long time. I'm not sure I'm buying Jacob actually being the evil one. Maybe there is a twist, but I think by now we should have the clear sides of good and evil. The writers knew this would be an major theme arc since the pilot with the backgammon white and black stones. So to upset the balance of jacob = good/white and MIB =evil/black seems like it would cause too much confusion at this point. Then again, what doesn't? |
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Post by spinaltumor on Mar 24, 2010 12:23:34 GMT -5
Is it just me or did they take a horrendous amount of time to tell us that Richard was from Tenerife, was sold into slavery after killing a doctor, and ended up on a ship that was pulled into the island by Jacob to test his morals? All I wanted to learn was the MIB's darn name! And he still does not seem to have one. It was Richard's episode. Not MIB's. After years of not knowing Richard's backstory, I was pleased the episode spent so much time on it. |
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Post by warrick123 on Mar 24, 2010 15:31:33 GMT -5
yeah, i can't really complain about this episode, i haven't really complained about one since S3, i thought this was one of the most intriguing episodes of the series, definitely in my top 5. It did bring up some good questions though most of them mentioned above me, like the island being in the atlantic somewhere and stuff like that. However i think my biggest question/concern is... Why did Jacob start the "others," if everyone he brought to the island died, except for immortal Ricardus (i guess were calling him now), or in that regard they were killed by MIL, why form a colony or a group of inhabitants of the island which we call the others... i think its safe to say that not all of the others, if any, showed signs of being good people, well according to my definition of good. They were very manipulative, kidnapped children, killed people... etc. I mean it seems as if what MIL has said all along is really true, i cant remember the exact quote verbatim, but when they were on the beach when we first saw MIL he said "it all turns out the same, they come here, and corrupt, and die," or whatever it was. I mean first off, if your on an island like this one, i think you would become a little crazy and do things you wouldn't normally do to survive, so i don't think that's a fair representativeness of if you're good or not, with that being said, everyone who has come there with the exception of Richard so far, has tried to change the island or have been corrupted, everyone from Russo to the DI, to the Losties. Furthermore i think its obvious that Jacob and MIL are not merely "humans," they have to be some sort of deity figures, maybe not a messiah and a satan, but definitely god like creatures. Their abilities back this up... turning into smoke? not being able to be killed (sayid stabbing MIL), Jacobs ability to touch you and heal you or give you eternal life. Also is Jacobs only reason for being on the island to keep MIL there or did he have similar reasons to why the DI went there, for the special powers of the island, or did Jacob provide those powers himself... such as the donkey wheel... someone had to have built the donkey wheel... I'm not a big follower on the whole i need to have a name thing, in fact i wouldn't be disappointed if we never got a name for MIL, it just adds to the suspicion of his character, obviously i want an answer to "who" he is per se, but having a name is not on the top of my priorities for the questions i want answered. That leads me into my last question or comment: Where did the heiroglyphics/aztec/egyptian architecture stem from? somebody mentioned them learning Latin to pass time, do you think they learned how to scribe hieroglyphics and build tawaret, and Egyptian temples too just to past time, i personally think there's more significance to this. Maybe Jacob has been moving the island throughout time all along with his donkey wheel just to find the perfect candidate, I mean we know that Hanso was the captain of the Black Rock, but with him dying on island and what not, how did the information of the island get passed on to the likes of the DI and his family lineage and people like Widmore and such... a lot of things still aren't adding up yet. Whose to say that Jacob wasn't a candidate himself? We don't know if there was a "watcher" before him with a list of candidates and what not, maybe he was given eternal life much like ricardus (although highly unlikely) and now he wants a replacement, however it just doesn't make sense why after all this time he needs someone to replace him, is it because he knew the future, that MIL would find a loophole i.e Ben and John Locke to kill him, and that's why he started the whole candidate thing? Id like to hear insight on what you all think on a few of these topics mentioned here... Sorry for rambling on P.S How Jorge Garcia took my crackpot theory about Jacob using the mirrors to travel through time, back and forth to the island, i made a thread maybe 3 weeks ago, saying that he did this much like blue did in blues clues... but since Jorge said it, it must be credible xP j/k! lostpodcast.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=9589&page=1#214979 |
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Post by LockeRulez on Mar 24, 2010 21:04:43 GMT -5
I don't feel like there was anything crazy revealed about richard's role which should have been held back this long. I can understand holding back through the introduction of Jacob/MIB, but we always thought there was more to this than just he's an immortal advisor because Jacob made him an immortal advisor (which we mostly knew). 2 years ago (April 08) my husband and I took a LOST tour on Oahu. We were up in the mountains at Kuloa Ranch where they film a lot of scenes. Our tour guide stopped at some small straw huts that are used by various TV/Film crews. He said LOST had just shot a scene there the day before and mentioned a theory that it could be a flashback for the Black Rock. He didn't see or mention actors though. We waited patiently through season 4 for those scenes and never saw it, so we assumed it was cut. I'm wondering if they were going to tell a Richard story, then decided not to. Richard's house in last night's ep looked like the same location, only there were more stones in the building than there was 2 years ago. I thought that this was an awesome episode giving some pretty big answers. Maybe they had to wait longer to share richard's story until there was more build up for Jacob / MIB. I thought things pieced together very nicely so it was worth the wait. very interesting. i've been trying to think about how they could have told his story before now. definitely could have shown the isabella story, the crash and smokey killing everyone on the black rock. and i guess we didn't necessarily have to see Jacob as he could have explained to someone else how jacob made him immortal (which he has explained before). then it would be interesting to see the follow up where we actually saw jacob participate in all these events, and some of the Jacob/MIB "game" motivation behind things.. the only thing i can't think of a way to tell is how MIB let him out, without showing MIB. maybe they contemplated showing MIB early before showing Jacob. then you'd really wonder if he was jacob! anyway, i wish we saw more over the seasons, but this was a great story, and good enough closure on ricardo. However i think my biggest question/concern is... Why did Jacob start the "others," if everyone he brought to the island died, except for immortal Ricardus (i guess were calling him now), or in that regard they were killed by MIL, why form a colony or a group of inhabitants of the island which we call the others... i think its safe to say that not all of the others, if any, showed signs of being good people, well according to my definition of good. They were very manipulative, kidnapped children, killed people... etc. I don't think Jacob necessarily deliberately formed The Others. I think that just naturally evolved at some point on its own because Richard held together the group. But also keep in mind that Richard (as far as we know) negotiated or at least was the representative in The Truce with Dharma. It can even be said that his discussions with Horace may have been "Advisory", even though Horace decided what he wanted. But that is still Jacob's motif. So even though he wasn't accepted by Dharma, he still was Jacob's representative and generally led to peace. Jacob doesn't really care if EVERYONE is part of The Others, as long as the overall presence is gets to choose good over evil. and then what they do on their own is their own choice. flaming arrows and all. even with the "lists" of people to kidnap, I'm not sure any of that is confirmed as actually coming from jacob, possibly other than The Candidates. I'm sure Ben just started his files on everyone and just grabbed who he wanted. That leads me into my last question or comment: Where did the heiroglyphics/aztec/egyptian architecture stem from? somebody mentioned them learning Latin to pass time, do you think they learned how to scribe hieroglyphics and build tawaret, and Egyptian temples too just to past time, i personally think there's more significance to this. Well, we did see Jacob making is tapestries and whatnot.. so again, those are most likely just projects to pass time, even if they do have meaning in the stories they tell. But I would say there is such a heavy influence from Egyptian/Aztec societies, probably because this was maybe the height of society on The Island. Fountain Of Youth, Atlantis, etc.. all myths that feature places that disappeared. So in regards to the larger structures, I think these are not just Jacob's projects, but rather the obvious explanation that there were significant peoples from those cultures on-island at one point, and obviously ended in catastrophe. Possibly The Island was even "well known" and not "hidden" at those times, and the catastrophes caused Jacob (or otherwise) to "move" the island, hence the disappearing myths. |
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