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Post by bruce on Mar 9, 2010 23:41:19 GMT -5
This is more of a question/comment but does have a taste of a theory.
I am almost certain and just looking for confirmation that anything that happened prior to the H-Bomb exploding (1977) is the same on island and in flash sideways.. In one scenario the bomb does nothing and Oceanic 815 crashes and everyone is left on the island. The other scenario is the flash sideway.
Ben acknowledges with his dad they were part of Dharma. But it would also mean that Ben was shot and repaired by Jacob. If the bomb exploded Ben and dad left the island and headed back to California.
The thing I am trying to wrap my head around is that if the H-Bomb exploded it did not do major damage but merely defused the electro magnetic problem perhaps only emitted a minor dose of radiation.
Enough that it was wise to vacate the island
Now we know that LOST is sci-fi because the explosion of an H-Bomb even one from the 1950s would do enough damage that Ben would not have escaped the island and would be dead.
So my question is
Do you guys also thimk that the flash sideways and what we see on the island changed into the 2 directions in 1977?
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Post by spinaltumor on Mar 10, 2010 0:09:02 GMT -5
But if detonating the bomb CAUSED the REAL incident, then maybe in the sideways it was just the electromagnetic energy pocket minus anyone and a bomb.... So that would mean no 815ers shooting Ben. Chang would still call for an evacuation and Roger and Ben would leave unharmed.
The pocket then proceeds to swallow the Island underwater.
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Post by bruce on Mar 10, 2010 3:30:51 GMT -5
I agree with you Spinal
I think that is when the 2 (I know we are not suppose to use this word - Alternative Timelines) began
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Post by Uncle Igmar on Mar 10, 2010 8:29:50 GMT -5
I am still going to hold to my theory that the supposed "sideways" flashes are realy flashforwards in disguise - that we have been thrown a curve by Carlton and Damon just to hide one of the biggest - yet to be revealed - secrets of LOST.
Here's what happens when the bomb explodes - Jack, Sawyer, Kate, Hurley, Jin, Juliet and Miles are blown 30 years ahead in time - from 1977 to 2007. This accounts for Claire not having seen any of the LOSTies for 3 years - that and they were really off the island before Ajira 316 for that long.
The Flash Sidewayses are actually Flash Forwards because the LOSTies - in the island story - are still travelling along their own personal timelines and have not yet been sent back to whatever points iin their lives - possibly before Jacob got to them.
That was originally the simple answer - that somehow everyone - with the histories we have seen - got shot back to the point in their lives where Jacob touched them - but that doesn't work as a blanket theory - Hurley shoots it full of holes. He wasn't touched by Jacob - that we have seen (unless there was a much earlier meeting we know nothing about) - until just before the Ajira 316 flight - which does not explain how - back in 2004 - he's "the luckiest guy in the world" - if he was shot back to just before Jacob touched him. He was pretty unlucky at that time as we have seen.
There has been some speculation out there that the creepy kid with the bloody hands is - at the very least - some sort of manifestation of Jacob (aside from the fully grown version Hurley is seeing) And I am in that camp as opposed to the "The Creepy Kid with The Bloody Hands is Aaron" camp.
See - the problem with simply saying that the explosion at the Swan Station simply made the crash of Flight 815 NOT happen is that we have seen that too much in the LOSTies lives in thei past has changed.
If the explosion of the Jughead hydrogen bomb just made it that the 815 crash didn't happen and that the plane landed in LA as planned - then Jack - while probably landing in LA with an empty coffin - would still otherwise be the unmarried - childless Neurological surgeon with daddy issues who cries a lot that we all know and love.
Hurley would still be unlucky, Ben would still be on the island (even though we were shown it was underwater - another hint that - at least to me - the flash-sidewayses are in the future - I mean what better way to protect an island than by sinking it? )
But we have seen - or it's at least been hinted at - that Hurley is far from unlucky, Jack is a divorced with a kid (12/13 years old) Neurological surgeon with daddy issues who cries a lot, Ben got off of the island - and not just yesterday - he's been off for a good long time.
And about that - it was kind of interesting that Roger was using oxygen - did Ben try - and fail - to kill his father - but damaged him enough to feel that he had to repay his father by taking care of him (remaining unmarried and childless)? Or was there an attempt at a purge that failed - but made Roger hightail it off of the island?
WOW - I want really far afield on that tangent just to get back here - I brought up the Creepy Kid just to make a point that Jacob is still a force (even though dead and maybe even in a diminished capacity - on the island) and that Jacob or MIB - or maybe even both - are reponsible for our LOSTies being plopped down in their own lives at a time way before Flight 815 even happened - maybe back to before Jacob came into (interfered in?) their lives.
Cases in point - Dogen is alive and in LA - as opposed to being in Japan almost killing his kid - or dead on the island. No island - no need for Jacob to need Dogen - no need for Jacob to show up and maybe making things worse for little Dogen, Jr, as a way to get Dogen to the island (as in Sayid's story - being there when Nadia was killed).
Or something like that.
Just a long and rambling thought.
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Post by bruce on Mar 10, 2010 17:55:01 GMT -5
Let me address some of my problems with the flash sideways being a flash forward
Claire got pregnant in early 2004 how can she still be pregnant with the Aaron in late 2007?
Christian died in Sept 2004 why would Jack retrieve his body in Sept 2007.
If it is a flash sideways (or a different road take at a crossroad) then the year this happens can be any year it can be 2004, 2007, 2010, 2025 etc. The flash sideways means that the factors have changed.
The 3 year time period for Claire not seeing the Lostees was 1974-1977. There is much confusion, because Juliet exploded or did not explode the H-Bomb in 1977.
The confusion is if Juliet explodes the bomb we get the flash sideways if she did not we get what is happening on the island.
So actually I am going to reverse your theory
If she does ir is 2004 and the flash sideways is what was suppose to happen.,
If she does not it is 2007 and the island is a flash forward.
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Post by spinaltumor on Mar 10, 2010 22:23:28 GMT -5
No the sideways are definitely in 2004.
The sideways would be a flash-forward CONSCIOUSNESS-wise. Like Desmond in The Constant. No one's physically moving through time, their minds are. Saying the sideways are the epilogue is saying that the character on the Island will consciously travel back to 2004 and into themselves in this parallel universe where they don't crash. The memories of being on the Island are buried under their past in the sideways timeline, so they only subconsciously have memories of the Island that comes out in the form of deja vu.
So no one's still pregnant in 2007 or anything.
And Claire didn't time travel. She was alone from 2004-2007 when everyone else was in 1977.
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Post by bruce on Mar 11, 2010 5:31:04 GMT -5
The rules of time travel on LOST are unclear and my problem with time travel is that it is fantasy and not sci-fi
The only scientific way that I can justify time travel is that we all are traveling into the future at a rate of one second per second.
If we look at the sun (not recommended of course) we are actually seeing an image of the sun from 8 minutes ago. Just as we can see an image of 200 light years away even if it blew up 150 years ago.
My logic that time travel can never exist is that eventually it would have to be discovered/invented,. Lets say it happens in the the year 7000, When that year eventually will come there will be time traveller who will return to our time and at least one will screw up and thus we will discover that there is time travel.
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Post by spinaltumor on Mar 11, 2010 9:28:43 GMT -5
It's called science fiction, though. The actual science for time travel doesn't have to exist. It just has to exist in the story based on the story's own fake-science. Like worm holes and stuff. They have a scientific base, but in sci-fi lead to time travel and whatnot.
The way Lost uses time travel is based on electromagnetism...so, it's based in science. Even if it's not actually possible in real life.
But either way, why should it matter if it's sci-fi or fantasy? It's still a part of Lost either way.
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Post by bruce on Mar 11, 2010 16:43:51 GMT -5
In fantasy everything is possible. The criteria for Science Fiction is that it should be as a minimum plausible and should be part of a logical progression of our current knowledge.
Fantasy would be a box where you can have whatever you wish, an island magically repairing a damaged spine repairing itself.
Science Fiction would be making a wish and if it is doable having a team of people make it happen, a plane crash realigns a damage spine and makes it usable.
In Fantasy you suspend belief in Sci-Fi you look for a logical progression and try to understand and make sense of it.
Since LOST is fantasy we accept that exploding an h-bomb in 1977 does no property damage or harm but opens 2 separate timelines.
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Post by spinaltumor on Mar 11, 2010 17:34:58 GMT -5
Whatever, to me Lost is genreless. Why limit what a story can do? They should all be "fantasy."
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Post by bruce on Mar 11, 2010 19:33:11 GMT -5
Well id LOST is pure fantasy there is no need to analyze or rationalize it.
Polar Bears found on an island in the tropics was rationally explained as they escaped from a scientific experiment which brought them to the island and they escaped.
In pure fantasy the bears would be playing with unicorns, mermaids and centaurs.
The writers promised us in the beginning that their is a scientific explanation for everything. I was willing to accept when they went to sci-fi but by slipping into fantasy then all our theories need no have a basis.
Us LOST fans are creative and great thinkers such as yourself Spinal
But don't you prefer the climb and challenge rather than sitting in on a ride
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Post by monsterjester on Mar 12, 2010 21:25:35 GMT -5
No.
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Post by corrwill on Mar 14, 2010 2:46:28 GMT -5
Back to the question at hand... I think it is important to keep in mind that there are two things here...I don't think the start of the flash is the same as the island sinking. They happen at two different times.
If you wanna get technical I think the changes started happening as far back in time the losties went. Yeah they went back to 4toed statue time (we don't know when really) but I think the time that had the most effect started in the 1950's With the flaming arrows and young widmore. This is where things began to change. It is the first time or losties interfered with the past so time skewed from this point on. Now depending on how the rest of the season goes this can change...Who knows they might travel back to the 1800's or something. We will have to wait and see.
As far as the Island sinking we kinda know now that it happening in or after the 70's. My best guess is from the electromagnetic properties near the swan, but anything can fit here too...could have something to do with the bomb, but remember this is dealing with whatever Richard and the others did with the bomb. Not, not, I repeat NOT, what the Losties did in 77 cause they were never there in this timeline.
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Post by monsterjester on Mar 14, 2010 4:25:50 GMT -5
That makes sense, but I'd point out that the picture that Christian showed Sun and Lapidus at the abandoned DHARMA houses did indeed show Jack, Kate, and Hurley in a photo from 1977.
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Post by spinaltumor on Mar 14, 2010 14:32:08 GMT -5
The Losties time-traveled in the Island timeline. They never did in the sideways timeline because they never crashed in the first place.
In the sideways, they never could have crashed, so they never went back in time, so the Island probably ended up underwater due to the Losties never interfering with the incident. The pocket of electromagnetic energy then probably swallowed up the Island in some odd way.
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