Interesting e-mails

[Jack]

Rick


Despite the last episode breaking away from the centric characters of
season one, there were still numerous interesting parallels between
season 1, episode 6 ("House of the Rising Sun") and season 6, episode
6 ("Sundown").

"House of the Rising Sun" was about the group dividing into separate
camps over the issue of the caves and the beach. Likewise, "Sundown"
shows the island inhabitants splitting into separate camps, those who
follow Man in Black and those who follow Jacob. Interestingly, both of
those divisions were prompted by the actions of dead
characters--Christian Shephard and John Locke.

In "House of the Rising Sun", Jin was cuffed to a some plane wreckage
by Sayid whereas in "Sundown," he is found restrained in the kitchen
where Sayid will (presumably) free him.

"House of the Rising Sun" ends with a nighttime, slow motion shot of
the characters while Willie Nelson's "Are You Sure" plays; this
episode ends with a similar, albeit creepier moment with "Catch a
Falling Star" playing.

"House of the Rising Sun" was about Sun trying to leave Jin. In
"Sundown," she is trying to reunite with him.

Most interestingly, "House of the Rising Sun" ends with Kate looking
uncertain and unhappy about having stayed at the beach separated from
Jack; in "Sundown," she looks uncertain again and is also separated
from Jack.

[Jack]

I've just this second finished watching the episode Sundown and a theory sort of struck me towards the end of the episode when Sayid was talking with MIL/Good Jacob/Smokey.

It goes back to when Widmore told Locke in "The Life & Death of Jeremy Bentham" that there was a war coming (on the island) and that he had to be on the right side, or words to that effect. It's had me thinking since, to be honest, but now I think I've got a theory tying in those words, Man In Locke and The Flash-Sideways that we've had so far this season.

The crux of the theory is that the flash-sideways' are actually flashes into how the Losties would've lived their lives had they not had Jacob's influence on them; i.e. if Jacob was killed earlier by MIL or if they hadn't been selected as candidates. Basically, there was no "game" to be played between Jacob and MIL, so they had no reason to wind up on the island.

We've already seen that Jack was still a doctor, Locke was still in the wheelchair & working at the box company, Kate was still a fugitive, Charlie was still a drug addict, Boone was still protective of his step-sister (who was still in an abusive relationship), Sayid was still infatuated with Nadia and so on, but because Jacob hadn't visited them (assuming he hasn't done so in the flash sideways), their lives post-815 are vastly different - not to mention the fact that the Island is in fact underwater, thus they couldn't crash in the first place!

When MIL told Sayid that he could have that one thing back that he wanted in the whole world, despite being dead in their current "reality" (sorry, couldn't think of another word for it!), I thought it was a nod towards the fact that in Sayid's flash-sideways, Nadia was still alive and that the flash-sideways is where MIL wants to "return home" to - seeing as though returning home, as we saw in this episode, wasn't - as expected - to return to the Temple.

So, in a round-about way, the best way I can explain it is;

-- MIL wants to "go home" to the "reality" in which the flash-sideways are taking part in. Now there is no Jacob around to stop him, he can do so. If he succeeds in doing so, everyone on the Island will die, because it will end up on the bottom of the ocean.

-- Somewhere down the line, we'll have everyone making a choice (or a power-struggle); whether to stay in their current place, or go to that place where the flash-sideways are happening and thus, we'll either see the Island being in the control of the new "candidate", or we'll see it wiped out completely, to live out the rest of its life as an Atlantis-esque entity.

-- The "War" the was referenced by Widmore will have something to do with the present timeline vs the flash-sideways (the power struggle) and deciding which one wins through in the end.

-- If the flash-sideways had flashbacks in them (that would get confusing!) we'd see pretty much identical things to stuff that we've already seen because that was always constant, Jacob/MIL are the variables - Jacob shifting the game towards the Island and the events we've seen throughout Season 1-6 on the Island... and MIL shifting it the way of the flash-sideways in which 108 landed at LAX and everyone living out their lives off the Island.

-- Another small theory; I think it's going to be Desmond that's No. 108. The Island isn't done with him yet. If not Desmond, then WAAAAAAAAAAAALT.


I don't know if that makes any sense to you guys, but it's the best I can come up with at 1am having just watched the episode and writing all this up off the top of my head. Thoroughly enjoy the podcast, it's enhanced my enjoyment of LOST so thank you & keep up the cracking work!

Jez from Blackpool, England.

[markedman]

Mar 12, 2010 5:12:59 GMT -5 Jack said:

Rick


Despite the last episode breaking away from the centric characters of
season one, there were still numerous interesting parallels between
season 1, episode 6 ("House of the Rising Sun") and season 6, episode
6 ("Sundown").
Rick,
This is brilliant stuff.

[Jack]

Hey Jay and Jack,
I actually called this theory in but I’m going to expand a little here or maybe just reiterate my thought more coherently.
Let’s start with Claire, she will be on the black rock when it arrives to the island. If you remember in episode 11 of season 1, All the Best Cowboys have daddy issues, Charlie is reading Claires diary to jack and Sayid and she writes of a re-occurring dream where the black rock keeps pulling at her and won’t let her go. Later there is a scene where Claire is asleep by the cave fire and drifts into a dream state or her consinsienc travels in time back to the black rock (much like Desmond and Mankowski) where some one attacks her with a knife that appears to look like a pirates dagger! and maybe sh is kidnapped? Also in Thomas loft before Claire moves in there is the drawing of the 3 heads with either hell o or hello written on it, I will come back to this. Claire is wearing a necklace that is the Chinese symbol for love. Now real quick Jack has a tattoo that he got in Thailand from a women who could see a person for who they truly are. If I remember correctly the tattoo translates to he walks amongst us but is not one of us. Also we have the smoke monster./island security system, Jacob, and MIB.

Ok let me tie this together. Jacks tattoo I think is telling us something profound. In an episode were the women known as the island sheriff she interacts with Jack in a conversation where she says do you know what your tattoo means and she says it then jack says that’s what it says that’s not what it means. I think what jack is saying in a round about way is that it says god or divine, therefore I think the writers were giving us a clue that Jack may be a God. Greek, Roman, Sumerian and many other mythologies believed that the gods walked the earth amongst the people/mortals. Gods had children with each other and sometimes with mortals(Charles Widmore having a child with some one of the island? Someone not a god or divine?). Greek mythology said the gods lived upon mount Olympus. And other mythologies had there respected home for the gods here on earth as well. On the flip side most mythologies also had there version of hell is also on earth or an island very close to earth, and both mortals and gods went there. These islands or hells were often guarded by some monster or gate keeper. Some of the islands or hells were actual deities or gods themselves.
Something I found that is interesting is the Greeks and Romans believed in Oceanus, which was a world ocean which was said to be an enormous river that encircled the world and on the other side of that river is the underworld. Also remember that man things like water and even island are not always just things, they are gods as well. That’s funny because Oceanus marries a Titan named Iapetus, which sounds like Lapidus, and Lapetus was an ocean during the Paleozoic era which is a precursor to the Atlantic ocean, a stretch put a connection?
Look at the name Oceanic, similar to Oceanus?, look at the oceanic logo, a ball surrounded by blue rings, like a planet surrounded by water or rivers, and 18 red balls. The oceanic flight seems to deliver the losties from one world to another as if it were the river.
Some interesting connections to the number 18: 1) The Hebrew value of the word alive is 18. 2) for this reason Joseph Heller’s Catch -22 was originally named Catch-18 but was changed to avoid confusion with another war novel. 3) There are 18 chapters in the Bhagavad Gita, which is contained in the Mahabharata, which has 18 books. The Kurukshetra War which the epic depicts, is between 18 armies (11 on the Kuru side, 7 on the Pandava). The Mahabharata is one of the two major Sanskrit epics of ancient India. The epic is part of the Hindu history. A major text of Hinduism and a cornerstone of Hindu mythology. Its consideration of human goals (dharma or duty, artha or purpose, kāma, pleasure or desire and moksha or liberation) is part of a long-standing tradition which seeks to explain the relationship of the individual to society and the world (the nature of the "Self") and the workings of karma.

Cerberus in Greek and Roman mythology, is a multi-headed hound (usually three-headed, could this be smokey, MIB, Jacob?) which guards the gates of Hades or the underworld, to prevent those who have crossed the river Styx, which is another name given to Oceanus or Oceanus‘ daughter, from ever escaping. I think I stated it before, but some gods can come and go from the underworld, the underworld contains gods and mortals, and gods can die. Also remember duality, some gods are there own siblings or parents and some mythologies use 2 gods to describe one deity.


Back to Claires necklace being the Chinese symbol for love. After looking up the Greek Goddess of love, Aphrodite, I followed it to other mythologies and landed on the Sumerian Mythology, and here is where it gets interesting. Inana is the Sumerian goddess of sexual love, fertility(why the others want Claire), and warfare(looks like the first convert in the island war?). A few more of her symbols are a lion, a horse, a sphinx star and dove(remember when Claire released Doves in Charlie’s dream? Inanna embodies the traits of independence, self-determination and strength. Possibly like on island Claire never wanting help, plus she did live alone for 3 years? Inana also derives from a goddess Nin-anna “Queen of the Heavens” and thus associated with the sky, her sign is an eight pointed star or a nautical star. The star stuff is great because Claire has stated she is in to astrology and also the song catch a falling star and le mer. I think this is funny because the song is about some one waiting for there lover to rescue them as they look out at the sea. This is significant I think because of this. In all of the mythologies the goddess of love travels to the underworld and is either trapped, and the way to the underworld is usually crossing water, and they have asked for help and are awaiting it much like the song and poem. Its believed that Inana had a sister who was in charge of and at the same time was the underworld. Many places in ancient myths are also the Gods or Goddess’ that rule that world or land or what have you. Also many siblings in mythologies are actual ways of saying that one deity has a good side and an evil side, duality, a theme repeated over and over again in LOST. Also many of the battles in mythologies are sibling, patriarchal and /or matriarchal battles, much like LOST.
The Greeks adapted Inana ito there mythology and called her Aphrodite, but excepted the Sumerian story to be Aphrodite’s as well. Aphrodite was than placed in an arranged marriage with Hephaestus a Greek god who by some accounts was not fathered by a male just by his mother, can you say John Locke? Hephaestus was not a handsome god and was cripple. His epitaphs read as follows: "the lame one” “the halting” “coppersmith” “renowned artificer”(well known for his manual skills) “shrewd, crafty” or “of many devices”. I think Locke is many of those things. It was an unwilling marriage on Aphrodite’s side so she soon cheated on him and he sought revenge. I realize that Locke and Claire are never really in a love story, but many religions believe that people live many lives where all possibilities play out. In one life Claire and Locke may have been lovers, in another friends, in another enemies, in another siblings, in another father son or any combination that you can think of. Yet another name for this love goddess is Ishtar this goddess is interesting because she enlist the help of Gilgamesh another story we are familiar with in LOST. In another myth the goddess of love is traveling on a ship to the underworld with a specific number of companions, I cant remember if it is 5 or 9. I’m going with 5 because of an abc promo poster for LOST. I’m even going to go out on a limb and say it may be Sawyer, Kate, Sayid, Alpert and Ilana who are on the black rock with Claire. I think this is funny because when a prgnet Daniel Rousseau comes to the island it is with 5 others as well.

So I think that’s all I can muster up now. There is so much more that would take forever to type so I will leave you with just a few things. My crack pot theory is that LOST is essentially Clash of the Titans, not just a battle between good and evil . The war is not between Jacob and MIB or himself but a battle amongst the gods that has been going on through time and has played out in numerous ways and numerous times and will continue to do so. I think either the island or the gods are LOST, not knowing their own divinity and trying to set the stories right and figure out there divinity. And since tracing these mythologies I can tell you that they are all connected to each other. That’s why we can see reincarnation, plus the idea of Karma or that things will come back around plays out in some way in almost every religion. Idea’s and things from different religions inter twine, in all religions, they all took from each other when they were passed down from generation to generation. That’s why I think the four letter word that Damon and Carlton speak of is either LOST for the island and/ gods not knowing who they really are at first or still. Or possibly GODS for pretty much the same reasons.


So some final tidbits that seem funny if this is true:

Reason I focused on Claire….. When playing the game with Sawyer and Locke, Hurley saying Australia is the key to the game. Australia = Claire

Charlie=I’m a bloody rock god

Hurleys mom saying Jesus is not a weapon when he picks up statue at his surprise party because he thinks some one has broken in.

Hurley’s shirt in the scene I just mentioned has the Ace of Spades and skulls on it. The ace of spades is traditionally speaking the highest card in the deck of playing cards, although the actual value of the card varies from game to game. In popular myth and folklore, it is also known as the "death card", and Hurley can talk to the dead and again the shirt also had skulls on it hinting at death again.
Duality plays heavy in most religions.

The constant use of see you in another life. Buddhist reincarnation.

Anyway im sure there is more im forgetting but ive slept like 4 hours a night since last week due to a family emergeny and this d**n show.



Thanks for your time,
George

[Jack]

Hey, Jay and Jack. I’ve been listening for over a year, but this is the first I’ve sent anything in, but this is getting to be too accurate, so I thought I’d sent it to you to see what you think. It’s a two-part theory on the game between Jacob & Man-in-Locke (not the same guy, Jack—let it go). I’m not sure if any of this has been floating around the internet, and I’ve heard bits and pieces throughout the different podcast theories, but here’s what I think it looks like in total.



Part one—Remember how Jacob said “it only ends once, everything else is just progress”? The flash-sideways are what happens when the game is completely over. The fate of our Losties (and all those who were on the island) in this reality is based upon who they chose on the island (good Jacob, evil Man-in-Locke). That’s why Dogen is seen off-island with a happy ending; Jack is seen happy; Hurley is seen happy; Locke is seen happy; even Ben is seen happy (he ultimately decides to side with Jacob as he was forced to play the Judas part in this story by betraying his mis-understood Master). Remember Ethan? He was good in the flash-sideways; even though on the island he was not the nicest character, he still chose Jacob. Sayid cannot escape violence nor get what he wants (Nadya); Kate is still running, etc. Claire turns out to have a happy ending in the flash-sideways, which makes me believe that she will turn on Locke as a result of his lying (like Aaron being taken by the Others). Characters are unable to change major aspects of their fate (so Locke is in a wheelchair, but the circumstances around it are different, Jack still loses his appendix, etc), but their outcomes, perspectives, and future happiness is dependent upon whether or not they chose or rejected Jacob. Take it to bank!



Part two—The game is simply this; every single savior of the island must be killed or compromised. That means that once they are dead, or they have irrevocably removed themselves from being able to protect the island, they are removed from the game board (and crossed off the ceiling). Man-in-Locke CANNOT kill any current protector or candidate. He CAN coerce people to do his work for him, as this is the only way he can kill these people (like manipulating Ben to kill Jacob). Remember the young boy telling Man-in-Locke that you can’t kill him (seemingly referring to Sawyer)? This is a reference not just to Sawyer (who still seems to not have chosen completely one way or the other), but to every candidate left alive. This explains why he did not kill Kate, but was not happy with her, since he had no real connection to work with to manipulate her to the dark side. Once every candidate is killed or compromised, Man-in-Locke can leave the island, and the game is over. Not sure about the end game for the other side, but I don’t believe it has anything to do with killing Man-in-Locke. Here’s my best guess: Jacob is trying to redeem Man-in-Locke, just like he offers redemption to all of the other Losties, and arranged this game so that it could potentially happen in this final end-game scenario beginning with Jacob’s murder.



Anyway, it’s a lot, and I know you don’t like complicated, but this is how I see the game shaking down at this point. It’s my theory, and I’m sticking to it.



James

[soreal]

That's a great theory but two things I have to say about it is how can we assume Kate will pick MIB if Claire switches sides? The only reason she is on that side is because she is trying to bring Claire back. If she switches, it will probably be because of Kate. It looks like Kate could be innocent in the flash sideways of course she could be lying but she did go back for Claire after kicking her out of the cab. There are nine more episodes left so a lot can happen between now and then.

The other thing is shouldn't MIB know Kate is there for Claire? He could incorporate that on a deal with Kate or he could assure her that she won't have to run from the cops anymore and could live a normal life.

Just my thoughts....I really like this theory

[Jack]

Howdy Jack and Jay,

I've been toying with a theory and I will try to be succinct. This probably best qualifies as a crackpot theory. Essentially, I wonder if LA X means LA 10, that the new "alternate" timeline is the 10th iteration of a process that has been repeating. Making the Lost we've been watching since the beginning the 9th iteration. My crackpot theory is that the same 360 people (for the 360 degress of the lighthouse) have come to the island a total of 9 times. I don't have a why yet. But, each time, one is chosen as island protector. Making Jacob the island protector from the 8th iteration.

If one of our Losties becomes the new island protector, something has to be passed to them that gives them the powers Jacob has been shown to possess. I believe whatever the source of that power is, God, aliens, etc. is the "eternal" (or at least long lived) versus the temporary body. When Jacob and MIB were talking at the beginning of the season 5 finale, with MIB saying that it's the same every time, they come, they fight, and Jacob saying it only ends once, everything else is just progress, that was the "eternal" part in each of them (that bestows the powers they possess) talking to each other. That exchange also belies the repetion that marks the heart of my theory.
Also related to my crackpot theory:

* There was a "Jacob" in the 9th iteration that was a non-starter for some reason (died on plane or became unaccepable as a candidate for some reason)
* Everyone who's ever been on the island has been a candidate or they could not have ever made it to the island. It's always the same 360 individuals that make up the candidate pool.

So that's it in a nutshell. No why, just a theory to try and explain the "alternate" timeline.

Thank you very much for humoring my theory. I love the podcasts, and I'm hoping to make it to the party in LA.

Matthew Tucson, AZ

[Jack]

In the episode Dr. Linus, when Ben write Elba on the board, it is an anagram for Abel. I also called this in while watching the episode but wanted to expand it. There's a lot I also wanted to note about Napoleon and Ben, but instead I will keep my email only to the Cane and Abel references.

Below, I have outlined of the similarities of Cane and Abel and MiB and Jacob. So both of their parents were Adam and Eve and "Adam and Eve."

Cane/MiB

-Evil, serpent
-1st born
-crop farmer
-God would not accept his crops but would accept Abel/Jacob's livestock is he murders Able/Jacob
-sinful
-God "marks" him - remember the others mark Juliet
-He marks him because he has murdered Abel and he wants to wander the earth and hopes someone will kill him but God wants people to know (seeing the mark) that if they kill him they will suffer 7x more so Cane goes to Eden.

Abel/Jacob

-SHEPHERD of a FLOCK (F-Locke - fake Locke)
- hunter
-1st martyr in history
- God accepts his livestock
- Cain marches him into the woods and kills him

* parallels of Locke always being asked if he is a hunter or a farmer
* steinbeck writes East of Eden about Cane and Abel
* steinbeck also writes Of Mice and Men with similarities of Cane and Able - how Cane marches Abel into the woods to kill him (like Lenny and George) and Sawyer talks about this in two episodes

Thanks for the great podcast. Keep up the great work.
Laura from Toronto.

[Jack]

Ryan



Hello Jay and Jack!

I only recently discovered your podcast, and wanted to say thanks for putting it out every week! It's been making my Lost-watching experience even more fun this season.

I had a theory that I wanted to run by you guys - not sure if it quite qualifies as "crackpot" or not, but here we go:

We know that Jacob has been around for a long time, and that he has a connection with ancient Egypt/Mideastern culture. We also know that the "Man in Black" who's walking about in Locke's body has known him for a long time, has reason to hate him, but is unable to act directly against him.

So here's my theory: I think that the Man in Black is a genie that Jacob enslaved at some time in the past. He forced him to create the island as a paradise for Jacob, and also as a prison for the Man in Black (like a lamp, only much bigger and more elaborate).

Jacob, wanting to learn about the nature of the genie's 'magic', starts bringing different groups of people to the island. Many of
these people have come from scientific backgrounds: the team of American soldiers testing the H-bomb, the Dharma Initiative, and the group of French scientists led by Danielle Rousseau. Prior to all of these was the Black Rock, but due to technological limitations, they couldn't assist Jacob's search for knowledge when they arrived, and were then cast aside by Jacob, although
he allowed them to continue living on the island. These people eventually became known as The Others.

The Dharma Initiative was able to make some progress, learning that the genie's magic was electromagnetic in nature; during the Incident at the Swan station, the genie's prison was cracked open, and an aspect of it was able to escape. After this incident, Jacob added a security system to the genie's prison, requiring that a computer system be activated every 108 minutes to prevent the genie from fully escaping.

The piece of the genie that escaped during the Incident knew that it wasn't powerful enough to either confront Jacob directly or free the rest of itself, so it turned to the Others that Jacob had rejected. The genie was able to use its magic to convince them that he was Jacob, and that Jacob wanted them to remove Dharma and anyone else that might come to the island. The genie hoped that by doing this it would be able to free itself from the prison, and very nearly succeeded – it was only due to the complete isolation of the Swan station that Calvin Radzinsky, the man stationed inside it, was able to survive.

Jacob blamed himself and his search for knowledge for the loss of the Dharma agents, and became despondent, secluding himself in his cabin to mourn their loss. During this time the genie gives the Others full run of the island as a reward for the Dharma purge, presenting himself in his native form as a gift from Jacob, a “security system” that they could call on when requiring protection.

Jacob eventually returns from his self-imposed exile with the knowledge that the genie must remain imprisoned at all costs, and that
his attempts to control the genie were misguided. Knowing that he can't stay on the island, as he would be too tempted to control and use its power; to keep the world safe from the unleashed power of the genie, it needs a guardian that would neither want nor seek out its power.

Jacob creates a list of potential candidates to replace him as guardian of the island and prisoner of the genie. He gives this list to the genie, warning it that neither it nor the Others are allowed to harm those on the list. He then manipulates events to make
sure that all of those candidates are on-board Oceanic flight 815, especially his prime candidates – John Locke, Jack Sheppard, Hugo Rayes, Kate Austen, James Ford, and Jin Kwon (it may be significant that four of those individuals share names starting with J). The experiences of these individuals on the island serves as a proving ground to determine which, if any of them, will be worthy of replacing Jacob.
While a lot of people are betting on Jack ot replace Jacob, my money's on Sawyer - he proved himself in the 1970s to have
nobility, but he's never displayed a desire for power or leadership, and I think those are values Jacob wants for his replacement. The only question is how Sawyer will be motivated to take that spot - maybe he'll encounter or see Juliet from one of her bounces through time from last season, and realize that as long as he's on the island he can in a way be with her?

Anyways, that's my theory, would love to hear what you guys think about it!

[Jack]

Daniel


Hey lads DJ here, had some spare time so whipped up a Lost poem and I'll keep toying with it in the coming weeks.


LOST ORIENTATION

Welcome to our island
where no day is quite the same.
There's a bald guy made of smoke
although nobody knows his name.

Come see our lovely beaches
strewn with freshly laid debris,
and meet the latest players
as they seek their destiny.

No matter what their background
in my lighthouse I will see,
and judge if they are worthy
to assume the role of me.

We've many great attractions
and we're always gaining more.
As every new contestant's toys
fall to the island's floor.

The Black Rock rests in jungle
when it once did sail the sea.
A slaver ship that's given us
much fun with TNT.

The DI truly left their mark,
a hatch at every turn.
But we taught them one lesson
that they didn't want to learn

Another island rests nearby
a runway through it's heart,
and although we saw it built
we know not who told them to start.

There's all of this and plenty more
all waiting to be found
But war is brewing
so we've little time to stand around.

As all the players who have left
return now to the game;
The future shall be forged,
The island never quite the same

You may not quite know everything
But that's just how it goes,
For no man shall ever search for
knowledge he already knows.

[Jack]

In the episode Dr. Linus, when Ben write Elba on the board, it is an anagram for Abel. I also called this in while watching the episode but wanted to expand it. There's a lot I also wanted to note about Napoleon and Ben, but instead I will keep my email only to the Cane and Abel references.

Below, I have outlined of the similarities of Cane and Abel and MiB and Jacob. So both of their parents were Adam and Eve and "Adam and Eve."

Cane/MiB

-Evil, serpent
-1st born
-crop farmer
-God would not accept his crops but would accept Abel/Jacob's livestock is he murders Able/Jacob
-sinful
-God "marks" him - remember the others mark Juliet
-He marks him because he has murdered Abel and he wants to wander the earth and hopes someone will kill him but God wants people to know (seeing the mark) that if they kill him they will suffer 7x more so Cane goes to Eden.

Abel/Jacob

-SHEPHERD of a FLOCK (F-Locke - fake Locke)
- hunter
-1 1st martyr in history (man if he was alive, I date him - just a little humour)
- God accepts his livestock
- Cain marches him into the woods and kills him

* parallels of Locke always being asked if he is a hunter or a farmer
* steinbeck writes East of Eden about Cane and Abel
* steinbeck also writes Of Mice and Men with similarities of Cane and Able - how Cane marches Abel into the woods to kill him (like Lenny and George) and Sawyer talks about this in two episodes

Thanks for the great podcast. Keep up the great work.
Laura from Toronto.

[Jack]

Disclaimer** This is going to deal with a dense philosophical text.

Comparing the vision of the soul described in Plato’s dialogue Phaedrus, to the roles of Man in Locke and Jacob on the island.

Stick with me through this explanation, it will get more interesting, I promise.

So last night, or this morning rather, as I was studying for my Rhetoric midterm, I realized I had the keys to solving the whole Lost puzzle[ha ha]. In his dialogue Phaedurs, Plato describes the soul as having three main parts. A good upright and beautiful winged-horse, a maimed ugly disobedient winged-horse, and a charioteer driving the horses. Upon one’s death the soul ascends to Heaven, or something like it. Upon arriving here the soul is thrust into a chaotic race, circling the Truth. The Truth is composed of justice, temperance, knowledge and beauty. In this race, the good horse steers the charioteer to the truth; but he must always fight the lamed horse, who continually pulls him away from the Truth. A soul must try to glimpse the Truth as many times as it can before becoming so badly injured by the other souls that it falls back to earth; devoid of all memory of its divine knowledge.

The amount of memory we (the reincarnated souls) can access while in mortal form is directly related to our intellect and moral worth. Beauty is the element of the truth that is most often recalled, because love can remind us of true beauty. Plato then states that the order of prestige among souls begins with the philosopher. The list proceeds this way: lawful king, business man, one concerned with the cure of the body, prophet, poet, craftsman, and lastly tyrant. One could move up or down the hierarchy depending on how they conducted themselves in this life.

Why does any of this matter, unless you are my rhetoric professor?

Because Jacob and Un-Locke are the horses, and the Losties are the charioteers. The island holds the truth, and they are continually being pulled away or pushed toward the Truth ( the island). The flash sideways are the “reincarnated” Losties, devoid of their memories of divine knowledge. Different people remember more or less of what took place on the island than others, indicating their level of morality. For example there is little indication that Sayid remembers anything that took place on the island, whereas Jack seems alarmingly aware of the alternate chain of events.

Love is seen as a means for remembering Truth. Through love we can glimpse beauty and beauty is an element of the Truth. This seems to be especially true for Desmond and Penny. When Desmond lost all sense of truth, all he needed to remind him was a connection to Penny. Time travel aside, the concept of a love being a “constant” that can remind us of both realities, echoes Plato nearly perfectly.

Each of the divine truths is heavily emphasized on the show.

Temperance
The Losties must learn to practice temperance, or self restraint in order to survive on the island. Some of the more obvious examples are Charlie with heroine and Hurley with food. The island provides the possibility for learning the skill of temperance, it does not simply enforce it. In Charlie’s case, a plane full of heroine crashes on the island, for Hurley there is the Dharma food drop.

Justice
The island seems to make people answer for things they have done that are morally just or morally unjust. For example, the Smoke Monster kills Eko, seemingly as punishment for his past transgressions. Also Ben feels he must answer to the island for what he has done wrong. We see this concept come into play again and again, as people on the island are judged to be good or bad people.

Knowledge
On the island, knowledge is power. The person seeking knowledge is almost always at the mercy of the person who has the information he or she wants. One example that stands out to me is Un-Locke’s interaction with Richard in “The Substitute,” in which Un-Locke states that he never would have kept Richard in the dark the way that Jacob did. Indicating that this element of the men’s relationship was exploitative and unfair.

Beauty
As much devastation as the show harbors, it is also serenely beautiful and full of love at times. The birth of Claire’s baby, Aaron; the tenderness between Sayid and Shannon; Hurley and Libby’s short-lived romance; Rose and Bernard’s reunion; Jin and Sun reconnecting and conceiving a child; Charlotte and Daniel; [Sawyer and Juliet; Jack and Juliet; Sawyer and Kate; Jack and Kate (so that one is a little messy forgive me)]; Claire and Charlie; Michael and Walt; Ben and Alex; Juliet and Goodwin-you get the point. At some point on the island, everyone has experienced beauty, shared a relationship with another human being and become better for it. The island forged and reinforced the connections that allowed the Losties to experience the beauty of humanity.

Perhaps it is true that Jacob and Un-Locke are just mortals, but even then isn’t it possible that they are opposite ends of Plato’s knowledge and moral character spectrum, one a tyrant and the other a philosopher (or lover of beauty).

I find it much more appealing to believe that they are simply two winged-horses pulling the souls of mortals to and from the Truth. Eternally battling one another for the right to our perception of knowledge. So in a way, Jack you might be right. Maybe they are the same person; in so much as they are both, in a way, present in us at all times. If each man or woman has a scale; maybe even while we live, the horses are pushing a pulling the balance one way or another. Not only toward good or evil, but toward and away from enlightenment.

Maybe the reason that Un-Locke had Jacob killed is so that their wings would finally fail, and the souls they are carrying could return back to earth. (A la’ flash sideways?)

Just a thought, I guess I really will do anything to avoid studying for my midterm which is in less than three hours. Thanks for all the hard work you put in on the pod-cast. Listening really is the highlight of my school week!

Best,

Samantha

P.s. At some later time I will have to write you about “The Cave,” by Plato, and what it has to do with Richard.

[Jack]

Counting down to tonight's episode... can't wait. Here's an email I thought I sent (but obviously it's been rotting in my drafts folder)with some random unbaked theories. Thought that the brilliant Jay and Jack could make something of them...


Theories:

1) Claire's crazy looking baby is not Vincent. Carlton and Damon said several seasons back that they would guarantee that Vincent will survive until the end of LOST.

2) Dogen said that he came to the island b/c of the deal he made with Jacob to let his son live after he killed him in a car crash. Well wasn't Doegan's son around the same age as Jack son? But Jack on the island now doesn't even know he has a son... therefore Doegan must have arrived on the island at a different point in time that Jack and the losties b/c his timeline has already happened where he has a son that's David Shepard's age

3) Why was it so straightforward with Doegan that he came to the Island after making a deal with Jacob, but for the losties everything remains unexplained and they still don't know why they are there. Did Jacob come to Doegan and make this deal, or did it take Doegan a while to realize why he was on the island and realized that in the past he had made a deal ith Jacob without even realizing it? Will the losties eventually come to the same clarity of realization as Doegan?

4) My crackpot theory is that there are two parallel universes that have always been there... Desmond was able to travel (in consciousness) between them in "Flashes Before Your Eyes" and that's what made him "special." We've already saw Desmond's flash sideways in that episode.... i.e. he asks for Penny's hand in marriage when he meets with her father vs. accepting the challenge to race around the world in the original timeline. Desmond was able to travel between the parallel universes after the hatch explosion. The losties couldn't travel between the universes before, but now that they were exposed to the bomb explosion in the incident perhaps they will be able to.... The real mission here is to bring the two timelines back together b/c they can only go so far before it causes a cataclysmic event that causes everyone to die (as suggested so many times in Lost... "If you don't do this... we'll all die" ms. hawking, locke, ben, claire's psychic, etc.)

I think what defines the parallel universes is the lack of a significant moment in each of the losties lives where some momentous event happened that would change their course forever -- let's call them "incidents":

Maybe "The Incident" in the season 5 finale erased more than just the Oceanic 815 Crash, but it also erased these significant "incidents" in each of the losties lives resulting in the "sideways" timeline...

i.e.
Sideways that we've seen...
Kate's Incident = killing her step-father. Sideways= she tells Claire she's innocent? = May be a free woman
John's Incident = father pushing him out the window. Sideways = father invited to wedding... maybe the manipulation by his father and pushing out the window never happened = No longer an angry man
Jack's Incident = reporting his father's intoxication in surgery. Sideways says that he was afraid of his father... maybe that means he never reported him = Ability to have better relationship with his son.
Sayid's Incident = Torturing Nadia. Maybe never tortured her... Sideways Nadia is still alive = Able to live his life with his love still in it an not dead.
Hurley's Incident = winning the lottery. Maybe he used different numbers... Sideways still wins lottery but has all good luck and not bad luck

Sideways we haven't fully seen...
Sawyer's Incident = father killing his mother and himself
Jin's Incident = working for Pike and going against his nature to be a good man
Charlie's Incident = becoming a drug addict
Claire's Incident = giving away her baby
Sun's Incident = having an affair
Doegan's Incident = drunken car crash that killed his son / came to island when he made deal with Jacob (the devil?) to let his son live if he never saw him again
Michael = Never gets in accident, never splits up with wife, ex-wife never dies?

Some of the sideways lives are more different from the island version of themselves than others while other lives are turning out relatively the same... In this case I think that everyone has a general tendency to have a certain nature and the island can bring out the other side in them... if the character allows it to....

Kate = similar... still on the run
Sayed = similar ... still a torturer by nature no matter how hard he tries to stop
Rose = similar... has a good attitude and accepts her lot in life in both time lines

Jack = different... trying hard not to have same relationship with son as he did with his father
Locke = different... not so angry and starting to accept his situation
Claire = different... keeping her baby, perhaps?



Stefanie in NJ

[Jack]

Kilian




Hi Jay an Jack

I want to thank you for that great work you do, i enjoy listening to your podcast almost every week.
Now for the first time i want to throw in some thoughts and theories.

0. M.I.L.'s mother's name is Sycorax (this theory has no number because it is not relevant. I just enjoy to find parallels between Shakespeare's "Tempest" an LOST. If i were right however, M.I.L.'s name would be Caliban.

1. Ben is still bad. he is playing a game like he always does. He is going to cheat on the "Jacobians". I hope that will not help him or anybody.

2. Sawyer has been conned by Widmore and M.I.L. They are working together (for the moment) and just wanted to find out what Sawyer really is up to. They put some locks on a door to make him come back to do his sheriff-thing and free somebody.

3. Jacob and M.I.L. belong into one Person. Everybody has those two guys in them. Widmore's mission is to reunite them in one Body. (-; Maybe it has to be a person, who always books two seats on a plane ;-). If this mission is completed successfully , everybody in the whole world is going to be safe.
Charles Widmore is not bad, he is very powerful but he also takes responsibility. He's a needful Leader.

if his mission fails, mankind will degenerate and men will turn into animals again.

4. What makes us People is what LOST is all about. They're telling the story of storys. Storys are, what trains us how to decide, what to desire and so on. They are telling us, that we do need both of these two opposite souls, one to love and the other to fight and survive. Everybody has them, that is how it works and that is what makes us human.

5. What i the Island? Most people think, that is not going to be answered. I think it has been answered already, when Mrs. Hawkins showed the pendulum to the Oceanic 6. She explains, that there are powerstreams around the earth which do cross on some points. but there also is a centerpoint, like a powerstation that feeds the stream, which can only be found with this pendulum and - very important- the right map underneath it.

There is a book by italian writer Umberto Eco with the title "Foucaults Pendulum". It describes exact the same thing. The "umbilicus" is something, magicians, sorcerers and alchemists were looking for , since king solmon mentioned it in a traveling report. to track that point and control it, means to have control over the whole world. only nobody came even near to it, except for king solmon. maybe he shared that knowledge with hiram, the founder of the free masons. They say to be in the know of where these "tellurian streams" are and were they cross. so they built big cathedrals upon these points.

A book critic called "Foucaults Pendulum" : … the Da Vinci Code for smart people.

Umberto Eco also wrote a interesting novel with the title "The Island Of The Day Before", which also reveals some ancient views and thoughts about the "umbilicus", the bellybutton of the world.

That's a lot of stuff, i hope it will find some attention in your show. I want to apologize for the bad english, if it is.

Thanks again for your podcast, guys!

Greetings from Reusstal, Switzerland

[Jack]

happyfeet082012




Ive been listnening to the Jay and Jack Podcast for a while because most people i know dont watch lost and I love to hear others input so i finally created my ultimate lost theory and decided to send it to you its very large read but very good and it just a huge crack pot but highly plausibe here it is : if you get board reading read the last five short paragraphs
then after that you would want to read from the top its a theor spun off from


so heres a theory i wrote on darkufo: its a crakpot:

IF Ben and his father were on the island at some point working for Dharma in the Alt Reality World …then wouldn’t Pierre Chang Miles father who was referenced in Recon remember the Island as well?
That’s the question that I asked myself as I read a theory about Charlotte going through Sawyers stuff (and we know how Sawyer feels about people going through his stuff) As the scene unfolded Sawyer and Charlotte. “who would’ve thought”. I thought to myself but then when she asked for a t-shirt I knew the Jig was up . Charlotte not only passed through so many of his t-shirts, but pounced on the folders that was in sawyer’s draw as if she found a rare gem that she’s be searching for , but if you look at her face she immediately looks disappointed .
Why would Charlotte be disappointed? I could not figure it . In fact I was just so happy to see her I forgot about the details we were given in Dr.Linus which is that the Island did exist as well as the Dharma In. being on the Island. And most likely since Ben was on the island the people that we met in 1977 were also on the island at one time but somehow all left the island at one point to live Of-Island.
So, my point …
Well , to make my point we have to remember the Moment When Miles disclosed the information to his father that he was indeed his son from the future.
Well this moment could have changed things Miles father actions of instead of leaving his wife and son ,Pierre Chang raised his son because he knew that he was ‘Special because of his time travel abilities’.
After the losties time traveled for the last time and left the 1977 dharma days I believe this is when the time shift change creating two different realities . I believe this because I believe that blowing up jughead did something and I also believe with the losties interacting and living in dharma over a 3 year period changed a lot. Remember Daniel Faraday word s “I focused on the constants, and forgot about the variables. You’re the variables you can change things and that they did, I believe. Also another thing that struck me odd was the scene of the submarine sinking I seemed so fake like it was going into a “fake” or different world much like the scene of the opening of LA X pt1 when they introduced us to the Alt timeline 815 with the same bad graphics we saw during the submarine scene maybe that tPtb (the powers at be )introducing us to Alt world idk just a fan ok back to the good stuff.
I promise..I am getting to the point..
So if 1977 becomes an alt .sideways timeline of island. This is the Flash sideways timeline we have been viewing for quite a while. This is the world(or you can say the past { because every present must have a past})of 815 landing safely
And.. Pierre realized that his son had time traveled probably to another time and when leaving the island he probably realized variation in the atl sideways timeline and realized that there were two Miles, the miles that time traveled to 77’ and Baby miles.
So, Chang leaves the island and make sure he raises his son and passed on his knowledge of the island and it’s capabilities on to his son miles as he gets older. Chang also knows if there are two of Miles ,one in one universe and one in another universe than, he probably believes that there are somehow two of the others specifically Kate, Jack, Sawyer, Jin, Sayid and Hugo.
So, Chang waits until the losties ( k,j,s,j,s, and h) mature and become of the age are near the age that he first remembers them as.
He enlist Miles to follow Sawyer become a guardian or to see if sawyer remember anything about the island.
I believe this because Sawyer barely did any coning off island except for like the first 4 minutes and since the episode is called recon I believe that Miles was doing a long con on Sawyer. The evidence: doing a credit check on him to check to see if he was telling the truth. And keeps on reminding him that he could tell him anything, and also setting him up on a blind date with Charlotte a person who he said he did not know well but worked at museum with his father and lived on THE island with him when he was a baby and was evacuated on the sub with miles chances are the families kept in contact with each other.
Remember Charlotte remembers being on the island as a little girl and even remembers Faraday, So she probably remembers Lafleur as well (because of his head of security position). That is why she was going through his stuff .He is her anthropology project instead of searching for the polar bear in Tunisia she searching for the time travelers from her past who caused mayhem.
What does all of this mean?
Well Mib is probably more than likely telling the truth about the island not needing protecting/saving. However, as always Mib is not telling the whole truth.
I believe that the Earth itself as well as mankind who lives in the earth needs saving and in order to save the earth the island needs to be there it’s the earth’s constant it holds it powerful energies under it and for centuries many have guarded these energies.(im sure more mythology is behind that).
So now in the sideways universe somehow the island is sunk. And P.Chang knows the implications and the magnitude of the seriousness of the earth losing its constant(These implications were probably told to him by Jacob who probably guide him to the island.) So he searches for the Variables that can ultimately fix the problem in equation of getting back the earth’s constant the island 4-locke 8-Hurley 15-Sawyer 16-Sayid 23-Jack and 42-Jin those who time traveled.
“Their Coming”-Jacob
Chang knows about the variables and searches for them and one day we will probably see them all together in the Alt time line and at one point we may see them boarding a plane to travel over the island a get to it through a “window” much like the one Eloise hawking was speaking of to have a part in the war .
However different selves will be fighting for different sides and proxies will indeed be in the mix
For example Locke probably will not take the flight that will take him to the window of the island and 51-Kate may take his place because Locke is sort of at peace with himself now. But the other variables are not . Jack-bad marriage not the best relationship w/son and missing dead dad, Kate- fugitive , Sawyer –still wants to kill not over parents, Sayid –still can’t stop trying to kill , and Jin still doing dirty work for Suns father and doesn’t appear to be married to Sun.
So if these versions come to the island they will probably fight their main timeline selves I’m sure eventually main time line Jack will want to be the protector of the island and want to stay but alt time line jack will want to go back to his son but somehow everything will have to coarse correct itself and two have to ‘Converge’ into one for their can be one stream of time. And there will be a fight between two sides one with light selfless (keeping the earth safe by protecting the island in jacks case ) and one dark with selfish intentions(having a son and having peace –never meeting kate all that good stuff).
I could go on which I am about other characters but for those who want me to stop now and conclude I will. Lost from day one is about the characters we were first introduced to the ones we saw seek their redemption and overcome their struggles there was never a Jacob or Mib and we never knew of a Ben or of an Alex. But I do believe there are some holes in this large theory I need to place Desmond and Aaron in it but I am having great difficulty doing it I just don’t believe somehow that Aaron has a bigger role than jack and Locke I think he’s a white rabbit that we will chase an find ourselves farther from the real answers. And Desmond I think he has a lot to do with the time travel aspect and I believe he will be used to close the door and end one of the time lines. There’s the ending hope you enjoyed.

Here’s the rest of which side which variable would land on
Kate’s alt –self will most likely want to say on the island knowing that she is a fugitive and normal time line Kate wants to leave and be with Aaron
Sayid’s Alt –self could go either way but I call that he would want stay since he has no purpose off island and seeks redemption by trying to protect the island while his normal timeline self wants to leave and be with Nadia where as his Alt-self feels as though he does not deserve Nadia .
Jacks Alt-self would want to leave the island and go back to be with his son ,but normal timeline jack realizes that a father and son relationship is going to be a sacrifice that the island demand him to give up.
Hurley Alt-self would probably want to leave the island and normal timeline Hurley may different and side with his Alt self and want to leave as well.
Sawyer obviously wants the heck off the island but his alt self may fight for the normal timeline and not want to go back to the alt reality world because he sees a far he has come emotionally but however , Normal timeline sawyer doesn’t see it the same way as Alt sawyer looks at it . The way normal time line sawyer sees it is that he gets to see Juliette again , so he will fight for the normal timeline side.
And the last Variable Kwon-Jin ,notice in alt reality Sun does not go by Kwon.#42
Jin will ultimately want to stay in the normal timeline as, well as his alt timeline self . Because of his daughter Jacob blessed Sun with the ability to have Ji Yeon because he knew that in the grandness of things that this would be Jins leverage ,His yearning to see his baby. And Sun will help make that happen notice Jin is the #42 the ending to the sequence and also the only variable who does not have conflict with his other self which means he may play a key role in ending the war because he will be at peace with his other self.
The variable I believe are the chosen ones and are the only ones who will me their doubles on the island the others aren’t part of the equation and thus does not have a hand in the war between selves.
Lost is a complex show so this theory is what I think is going on and the logic of what my brain can make out of the show thanks for reading let me know what you think.