Post by freestyl321 on Mar 23, 2010 17:17:06 GMT -5
This started as a lack of real substance. Much of the speculation I get on podcasts, read on blogs and hear between friends revolves around how this show is similar to other works. Including books, movies, religions, science and beyond. Everyone has a theory and a take, but its never definitive.
Of course this sounds like Good and Evil, Buddhist teachings, The Dark Tower series, The Stand, The Satanic Verses, etc. etc. But if we're really to believe that Damon and Carlton wrote as
intelligent a show as this with the main basis for the story being the
SAME as any example laid out before hand, then we're all "lost" for such fool hardy thinking. There are smatterings of each of these works and more through out this show. But, they've created something of which we've never seen before and may never see again.
In any regard, I still don't find any substance in what most people are trying to sell. (Jack, what's that theory about Jacob and MIB all about again?) Lots of ideas and not much substance. Most everything is held in belief of what is to happen. My list of game play and theory is a result of TRYING to ground this in what we KNOW. If perhaps we understand the rules of the game, look at how it's being played, we can better understand and perhaps predict whats really going on and what will happen on LOST.
This isn't perfect, I make assumptions from time to time to, but the goal is to base this in canon.
I've spent a bit of time trying to find places where it goes wrong. And I've included those at the bottom. Please feel free to tear it apart and add your own thoughts. I'm by no mean an expert and I'm quite sure that I may have skipped over examples that need to be included or that could exclude certain rules.
Any response you may have time for would be greatly appreciated.
So here we go...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Who are the players?
It's all a game of some sort (we can all agree on this), so lets think
about the players as chess pieces here. Use this only as an example. Chess is not meant to be a metaphor as much as a vehicle to understand...
The most important pieces are the Kings and Queens, least important are the pawns. But just like every chess game, how you set up your pawns will greatly dictate your end game. They are an important vehicle in getting you to your desired end game... winning. However the pieces you use the most are the secondary pieces, the Rooks, Bishops and Knights. They have the greatest mobility (other then the queen). Speaking as characters, they posses "skills" that the other pawns do not. So they get used the most and will be instrumental to winning.
So...
Main Players (Kings or Queens?)
Jacob
MIB
Secondary Players (Knights, Rooks, Bishops?)
Dogan
Christian (?)
Richard Alpert
Ben (was given status when he was "saved" as a child)
The Candidates
Locke
Hurley
Sawyer
Jack
Kwon (Speculation? I think it's Jin. Could be both.)
Kate
Sun
Sayid
Desmond (?)
Claire
Tertiary Players (Pawns) ...All others, such as...
Losties
Miles
Lapidis
Illana (?)
Darma Peeps
The Others
Army Team
French Team and Rouseau
Freighter people
Penny
Whitmore (?)
Elloise Hawking (?)
Anyone who had been crossed off of the candidate list.
I know that I'm leaving out Aaron and Ji-Yeon. I'm not sure where they
fall in here, but I believe that it's fairly obvious that they will play
a part at some time. What it will be and when remains to be seen.
............................................................................................................
Who are the teams? White pieces vs. Black pieces...
(Not to sound too much like Twilight fanatics here,
but...)
Team Jacob
Jacob
Jack
Hurley
Kate
Sun
Jin
Illana
Lapidis
Miles
Ben
Richard Alpert
Whidmore (?)
Elloise Hawking
Team Man In Black (MIB)
MIB
Sayid
Claire
The converted Others who chose to leave the temple in "Sundown"
Unknowns
Kate - She's traveling with Team MIB, but I don't think that she has
truly picked MIBs team. Given Recon, he's clearly trying to recruit her
to do something.
Sawyer - Sawyer is playing both sides of the fence to meet his
own agenda. Who he really will end up siding with? Who knows.
Again, I leave out Aaron and Ji-Yeon because we don't know. It's assumed they would be with Team Jacob at this point.
Widmore. I believe that he's actually a "good" guy and on Team Jacob. I think that Ben was manipulated by MIB for most of his life, and he sent Widmore away because MIB wanted him to be sent away. Widmore is back, and will help Jacobs cause. Still, he's just a third degree player at this point.
Elloise Hawking - I'm not sure what her role is, but
I don't think that she is a player at this point. She would have been and continues to be a Tertiary player.
I believe that Christian is another player, just like Dogan is/was. Not
sure of what his power is, but I believe that he was reanimated when he got back to the island.
Desmond... I'm not sure what his deal is, but he's been pointed at to be important. Guess we'll find out.
............................................................................................................
The Rules
Here are my rules at this point. They are based on what we've seen and some amount of speculation here and there. I've tried to
provide examples. Please keep in mind we don't know specifically WHEN someone is or is not a candidate, and when that changes.
Main players cannot kill each other OR secondary players.
We learned this from the "golden boy" in the woods, and from the Jacob and MIB conversation on the beach. This is also why Smokie didn't kill Kate at the Temple as she was climbing down into the hole in Sundown(?).
Secondary players cannot kill themselves.
This is why the dynamite that Richard and Jack light, does not explode. This is also my Michael couldn't commit suicide.
Secondary players CAN die by alternative means, but they cannot be directly killed by someone at the other levels.
This is why MIB helps Sawyer in "The Substitute" when he's hanging on the ladder. MIB needs to use Sawyer to use later,
and if he's dead he's of no use. This is also why MIB takes Claire off
of Kate in "Recon", because Claire really COULD kill her. Micheal eventually dies in an explosion set off by someone else on the freighter. So he eventually dies of alternative means.
Secondary players can only be killed by Secondary players.
This rule applies on the island when our players have their "powers".
However Secondary players may NOT kill Candidates even though
Candidates MAY kill Secondary players.
This is why Locke came back after Ben shot him at The Purge site. Dogan couldn't kill Sayid because he is a candidate. This is the same
reason why Dogan sends Jack to kill Sayid initially with the pill and wants to send Jack or Hurley to kill Locke but has to settle on Sayid because they aren't around in Lighthouse
Secondary players can kill Tertiary players. But Tertiary players cannot kill Secondary players.
We've also seen our Losties, Dahrma peeps kill numerous others that are third degree.
Candidates that are crossed off the list are no longer candidates.
In order to kill Main players, you have to be on the
SAME team AND they have to kill by choice. They MUST CHOOSE to do so. They cannot be forced into this. Before Ben stabbed Jacob, Jacob explicitly tells Ben that he has a choice of whether to kill him or not.
Main players must also be killed "at the hand of"
another.
............................................................................................................
Questions... These may either prove, or disprove the above rules...
When does one get crossed OFF of the candidate list? When your task, or what the island needs you for is done? ...and/or when you die?
We have some candidates get shot by people who were candidates, but did they shoot the other person while they were candidates or not? We don't know WHEN many of these folks get crossed off, or have been crossed off, so we don't know if who they've killed and when it happened is relevant to the rules.
Who killed Sayid (before he was claimed)? Did he die as a result of the gun shot? Whom shot him? OR, did he die from drowning? Who drowned him? Dogan? Lenin? Is it different because it was in the temple pool? As it possesses special powers? Is it different
because he had been claimed before hand? Or did he get claimed because of being in the pool?
Elloise shot Faraday. This may be the big hang up. She is not (as far as we know) secondary. Yet Faraday WAS a candidate at some point. So she shouldn't have been able to kill him. Perhaps they were both candidates? Was he no longer a candidate, so he could die? Is Elloise a secondary player? Could she shoot him because he was her son?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
So there you go... lots of thought, too much time invested in that.
It's my own speculation that MIB will die ending this game, however how he dies is the question... based on the rules laid out, he will be killed by either Claire or Sayid. Claire is the less obvious choice and would be more of a "twist" She will choose to kill him given how he manipulated her and how Aaron was taken away from her. MIB is also trying to ensure that Kate cares for him in some way. Claire is indeed infected and therefore on MIBs team as well. Just as we see her bi-polar actions in Recon toward Kate, she'll spring on MIB at some point given his lies involving Aaron nd he will perish.
What happens after that I have no idea.... and I can't wait to see it!
Of course this sounds like Good and Evil, Buddhist teachings, The Dark Tower series, The Stand, The Satanic Verses, etc. etc. But if we're really to believe that Damon and Carlton wrote as
intelligent a show as this with the main basis for the story being the
SAME as any example laid out before hand, then we're all "lost" for such fool hardy thinking. There are smatterings of each of these works and more through out this show. But, they've created something of which we've never seen before and may never see again.
In any regard, I still don't find any substance in what most people are trying to sell. (Jack, what's that theory about Jacob and MIB all about again?) Lots of ideas and not much substance. Most everything is held in belief of what is to happen. My list of game play and theory is a result of TRYING to ground this in what we KNOW. If perhaps we understand the rules of the game, look at how it's being played, we can better understand and perhaps predict whats really going on and what will happen on LOST.
This isn't perfect, I make assumptions from time to time to, but the goal is to base this in canon.
I've spent a bit of time trying to find places where it goes wrong. And I've included those at the bottom. Please feel free to tear it apart and add your own thoughts. I'm by no mean an expert and I'm quite sure that I may have skipped over examples that need to be included or that could exclude certain rules.
Any response you may have time for would be greatly appreciated.
So here we go...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Who are the players?
It's all a game of some sort (we can all agree on this), so lets think
about the players as chess pieces here. Use this only as an example. Chess is not meant to be a metaphor as much as a vehicle to understand...
The most important pieces are the Kings and Queens, least important are the pawns. But just like every chess game, how you set up your pawns will greatly dictate your end game. They are an important vehicle in getting you to your desired end game... winning. However the pieces you use the most are the secondary pieces, the Rooks, Bishops and Knights. They have the greatest mobility (other then the queen). Speaking as characters, they posses "skills" that the other pawns do not. So they get used the most and will be instrumental to winning.
So...
Main Players (Kings or Queens?)
Jacob
MIB
Secondary Players (Knights, Rooks, Bishops?)
Dogan
Christian (?)
Richard Alpert
Ben (was given status when he was "saved" as a child)
The Candidates
Locke
Hurley
Sawyer
Jack
Kwon (Speculation? I think it's Jin. Could be both.)
Kate
Sun
Sayid
Desmond (?)
Claire
Tertiary Players (Pawns) ...All others, such as...
Losties
Miles
Lapidis
Illana (?)
Darma Peeps
The Others
Army Team
French Team and Rouseau
Freighter people
Penny
Whitmore (?)
Elloise Hawking (?)
Anyone who had been crossed off of the candidate list.
I know that I'm leaving out Aaron and Ji-Yeon. I'm not sure where they
fall in here, but I believe that it's fairly obvious that they will play
a part at some time. What it will be and when remains to be seen.
............................................................................................................
Who are the teams? White pieces vs. Black pieces...
(Not to sound too much like Twilight fanatics here,
but...)
Team Jacob
Jacob
Jack
Hurley
Kate
Sun
Jin
Illana
Lapidis
Miles
Ben
Richard Alpert
Whidmore (?)
Elloise Hawking
Team Man In Black (MIB)
MIB
Sayid
Claire
The converted Others who chose to leave the temple in "Sundown"
Unknowns
Kate - She's traveling with Team MIB, but I don't think that she has
truly picked MIBs team. Given Recon, he's clearly trying to recruit her
to do something.
Sawyer - Sawyer is playing both sides of the fence to meet his
own agenda. Who he really will end up siding with? Who knows.
Again, I leave out Aaron and Ji-Yeon because we don't know. It's assumed they would be with Team Jacob at this point.
Widmore. I believe that he's actually a "good" guy and on Team Jacob. I think that Ben was manipulated by MIB for most of his life, and he sent Widmore away because MIB wanted him to be sent away. Widmore is back, and will help Jacobs cause. Still, he's just a third degree player at this point.
Elloise Hawking - I'm not sure what her role is, but
I don't think that she is a player at this point. She would have been and continues to be a Tertiary player.
I believe that Christian is another player, just like Dogan is/was. Not
sure of what his power is, but I believe that he was reanimated when he got back to the island.
Desmond... I'm not sure what his deal is, but he's been pointed at to be important. Guess we'll find out.
............................................................................................................
The Rules
Here are my rules at this point. They are based on what we've seen and some amount of speculation here and there. I've tried to
provide examples. Please keep in mind we don't know specifically WHEN someone is or is not a candidate, and when that changes.
Main players cannot kill each other OR secondary players.
We learned this from the "golden boy" in the woods, and from the Jacob and MIB conversation on the beach. This is also why Smokie didn't kill Kate at the Temple as she was climbing down into the hole in Sundown(?).
Secondary players cannot kill themselves.
This is why the dynamite that Richard and Jack light, does not explode. This is also my Michael couldn't commit suicide.
Secondary players CAN die by alternative means, but they cannot be directly killed by someone at the other levels.
This is why MIB helps Sawyer in "The Substitute" when he's hanging on the ladder. MIB needs to use Sawyer to use later,
and if he's dead he's of no use. This is also why MIB takes Claire off
of Kate in "Recon", because Claire really COULD kill her. Micheal eventually dies in an explosion set off by someone else on the freighter. So he eventually dies of alternative means.
Secondary players can only be killed by Secondary players.
This rule applies on the island when our players have their "powers".
However Secondary players may NOT kill Candidates even though
Candidates MAY kill Secondary players.
This is why Locke came back after Ben shot him at The Purge site. Dogan couldn't kill Sayid because he is a candidate. This is the same
reason why Dogan sends Jack to kill Sayid initially with the pill and wants to send Jack or Hurley to kill Locke but has to settle on Sayid because they aren't around in Lighthouse
Secondary players can kill Tertiary players. But Tertiary players cannot kill Secondary players.
We've also seen our Losties, Dahrma peeps kill numerous others that are third degree.
Candidates that are crossed off the list are no longer candidates.
In order to kill Main players, you have to be on the
SAME team AND they have to kill by choice. They MUST CHOOSE to do so. They cannot be forced into this. Before Ben stabbed Jacob, Jacob explicitly tells Ben that he has a choice of whether to kill him or not.
Main players must also be killed "at the hand of"
another.
............................................................................................................
Questions... These may either prove, or disprove the above rules...
When does one get crossed OFF of the candidate list? When your task, or what the island needs you for is done? ...and/or when you die?
We have some candidates get shot by people who were candidates, but did they shoot the other person while they were candidates or not? We don't know WHEN many of these folks get crossed off, or have been crossed off, so we don't know if who they've killed and when it happened is relevant to the rules.
Who killed Sayid (before he was claimed)? Did he die as a result of the gun shot? Whom shot him? OR, did he die from drowning? Who drowned him? Dogan? Lenin? Is it different because it was in the temple pool? As it possesses special powers? Is it different
because he had been claimed before hand? Or did he get claimed because of being in the pool?
Elloise shot Faraday. This may be the big hang up. She is not (as far as we know) secondary. Yet Faraday WAS a candidate at some point. So she shouldn't have been able to kill him. Perhaps they were both candidates? Was he no longer a candidate, so he could die? Is Elloise a secondary player? Could she shoot him because he was her son?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
So there you go... lots of thought, too much time invested in that.
It's my own speculation that MIB will die ending this game, however how he dies is the question... based on the rules laid out, he will be killed by either Claire or Sayid. Claire is the less obvious choice and would be more of a "twist" She will choose to kill him given how he manipulated her and how Aaron was taken away from her. MIB is also trying to ensure that Kate cares for him in some way. Claire is indeed infected and therefore on MIBs team as well. Just as we see her bi-polar actions in Recon toward Kate, she'll spring on MIB at some point given his lies involving Aaron nd he will perish.
What happens after that I have no idea.... and I can't wait to see it!
